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<yoav> |
marcosc_: Around? |
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<yoav> |
marcosc__^^ |
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<marcosc__> |
yoav: yep |
| [14:19:09] |
<yoav> |
marcosc__: Hey. Wanted to talk to you about the manifest, the fact that it's async and the orientation member |
| [14:19:22] |
<yoav> |
But in the mean time, wrote up a GH issue :) |
| [14:19:38] |
<marcosc> |
will take a looksy |
| [14:19:48] |
<yoav> |
|
| [14:20:13] |
<yoav> |
marcosc: Awesome, thanks! |
| [14:20:23] |
<yoav> |
Gotta go now, but be back in 30 |
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<Wilto> |
Whatup; what’ve I missed? |
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<gregwhitworth> |
yoav: I think I saw someone say that you will be updating the srcset to trigger downloads when a user resizes the browser. Is this correct? |
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<Wilto> |
gregwhitworth: Yeah, we’re waiting on another patch to land first. |
| [15:09:23] |
<Wilto> |
gregwhitworth: cbiesinger__ has been working on it. |
| [15:10:03] |
<gregwhitworth> |
Ok, so is it all based on viewport not zooming |
| [15:10:26] |
<gregwhitworth> |
basically it will only trigger when I resize the browser. Not when I control + '+' |
| [15:10:35] |
<gregwhitworth> |
currently zooming doesn't affect it |
| [15:17:29] |
<gregwhitworth> |
wilto: forgot to put your handle so it probably isn't alerting you |
| [15:20:24] |
<yoav> |
gregwhitworth: Don't listen to Wilto, he's bad for you :D |
| [15:20:56] |
<yoav> |
The picture sources are planned to get updated when the viewport changes, and cbiesinger__ is working on that |
| [15:21:22] |
<gregwhitworth> |
yoav: Ok, so viewport only then. How it currently behaves now, it just won't require refresh |
| [15:21:35] |
<yoav> |
There aren't such plans for srcset at the moment, but there may be in the future |
| [15:21:56] |
<gregwhitworth> |
yoav: Hmmmm, so you're specifically referring to picture sources then |
| [15:21:57] |
<yoav> |
Yeah, exactly |
| [15:22:33] |
<gregwhitworth> |
yoav: hmmmm, decisions, decisions |
| [15:22:38] |
<yoav> |
For srcset resources, you could make a case either way |
| [15:22:50] |
<yoav> |
And it's the UA's decision |
| [15:23:19] |
<gregwhitworth> |
yoav: yeah that's our problem at the moment. It is the UAs decision but devs usually want a similiar behaivor |
| [15:23:38] |
<gregwhitworth> |
yoav: I think it would be good to detail this if possible to one another |
| [15:24:37] |
<yoav> |
I don't think it'd be bad if UAs are not compatible here, but I'm all for full documentation |
| [15:25:04] |
<gregwhitworth> |
yoav: I understand why they don't have to be and benefits for it (perf, etc) |
| [15:25:06] |
<yoav> |
gregwhitworth: I also have plans to make resource selection (inside srcset) smarter. See |
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<gregwhitworth> |
yoav: I do think you should modify the spec, this is a good example, but that's my opinion |
| [15:27:27] |
<yoav> |
gregwhitworth: The current dev advice we give out is "don't assume anything regarding the actual resource that the browser will request inside srcset". Time will tell if devs would listen |
| [15:27:51] |
<gregwhitworth> |
yoav: man that's rough |
| [15:28:20] |
<Wilto> |
what i do |
| [15:28:55] |
<gregwhitworth> |
yoav: I can understand on mobile possible changing how this works, but on desktop I think we should try to be as consistent and intuitive for the devs |
| [15:29:20] |
<gregwhitworth> |
my grammar and spelling are off today |
| [15:29:28] |
<gregwhitworth> |
:) |
| [15:29:32] |
<Wilto> |
I mean, `srcset`/`sizes` whole deal is “when you don’t need super explicit control over sources.” |
| [15:29:47] |
<Wilto> |
“Slap some images in here and the browser will take care of it.” |
| [15:30:09] |
<Wilto> |
`picture`/`source` is for cases that require tight control. |
| [15:30:24] |
<yoav> |
Yeah |
| [15:30:30] |
<gregwhitworth> |
Wilto: ok |
| [15:30:47] |
<yoav> |
gregwhitworth: What would you say be a more intuitive way to go? |
| [15:30:53] |
<gregwhitworth> |
Wilto: that seems somewhat odd to me, but maybe I'm just a type A person and want my x == x |
| [15:31:12] |
<Wilto> |
The 1x/2x syntax blurs the line a little, but you can generally say “`srcset` when you don’t wanna think about responsive images, `picture` when you do.” |
| [15:31:28] |
<Wilto> |
gregwhitworth: Oh, don’t get me wrong—same here. |
| [15:31:41] |
<Wilto> |
Big hero images, art direction, etc. I lean `picture` still. |
| [15:31:43] |
<gregwhitworth> |
yoav: if I say srcset="img1.jpg 500w, img2.jpg 750w, img3.jp 850w" and my viewport is 860, you better grab the 850 |
| [15:32:19] |
<gregwhitworth> |
yoav: That's speaking as a web dev and what I would expect |
| [15:32:47] |
<yoav> |
gregwhitworth: As someone writing this from a desktop, tethered on a sometimes lousy 3G, I disagree :) |
| [15:33:37] |
<Wilto> |
Yeah, my cafe wifi is with yoav. |
| [15:33:38] |
<yoav> |
As a user, I want to be able to tell my browser "just download crappy images now, I don't care" |
| [15:33:48] |
<Wilto> |
But, there are cases for that explicit control too. |
| [15:34:01] |
<gregwhitworth> |
I agree with both of you |
| [15:34:28] |
<Wilto> |
Y’know, gregwhitworth, if I didn’t know any better, I’d say we were discussing some preliminary implementation details here WINK WINK |
| [15:34:36] |
<gregwhitworth> |
A good example of this though, I'm a dev and say that I want to download 4 versions of jquery, two mootools, etc - do you guys do it? |
| [15:34:38] |
<Wilto> |
NUDGE NUDGE; ADDITIONAL WINKING |
| [15:34:46] |
<gregwhitworth> |
Just curious |
| [15:34:49] |
<Wilto> |
aw |
| [15:35:12] |
<gregwhitworth> |
Even if network constraints are known |
| [15:35:34] |
<Wilto> |
I mean, we’re on weird turf here, comparitively. |
| [15:35:44] |
<Wilto> |
Because we *have* to assume the experience will suffer if we omit a script. |
| [15:35:47] |
<Wilto> |
Something will likely break. |
| [15:36:15] |
<Wilto> |
Big vs. small images on big vs. small screens, most options give us no perceptable difference, as a user. Just more damage to a data plan. |
| [15:36:48] |
<Wilto> |
We’re onto weird new turf with these stretchy images of ours. |
| [15:37:15] |
<Wilto> |
Which is why both cases need to be covered: the explicit heuristics case, and the “look, just figure it out for me” case. |
| [15:37:28] |
<Wilto> |
I mean, I’m pumped to see where things go with the new netinfo API for the sake of these. |
| [15:37:58] |
<Wilto> |
I want that “opt me out of high res images” toggle in the worst way. Again, see: this wifi connection. |
| [15:38:06] |
<gregwhitworth> |
Ok, so Blink is treating srcset as "grab me the best picture you think" and then using <picture> with sources as the art direction piece that you WILL adhere to. |
| [15:38:19] |
<Wilto> |
Yep. `picture` is as strict as things get on the web. |
| [15:38:29] |
<Wilto> |
I mean, there’s some MUSTs in there, I think. |
| [15:39:37] |
<yoav> |
gregwhitworth: Yeah, picture is the "download what the web dev is saying" case, and srcset is the "download what's best for the user" case |
| [15:39:44] |
<gregwhitworth> |
ok |
| [15:39:46] |
<gregwhitworth> |
good to know |
| [15:39:54] |
<gregwhitworth> |
Thanks for all of the help guys |
| [15:40:13] |
<Wilto> |
Anytime, dude. |
| [15:40:27] |
<Wilto> |
We’ve made a weird little thing, here. Happy to help make sense of it. |
| [15:40:27] |
<yoav> |
Currently srcset doesn't have that much smarts in it, but I plan on getting some smarts in there soon |
| [15:42:51] |
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<Wilto> |
`srcset` if you’re lazy, `picture` if you’re crazy™ |
| [15:54:39] |
<JonathanNeal> |
I love srcset. |
| [16:01:57] |
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<gregwhitworth> |
is anyone from apple in here? |
| [16:47:18] |
<cbiesinger__> |
yoav: did you see my conversation with elliott last night? |
| [16:47:25] |
<TabAtkins> |
gregwhitworth: It's not "Blink is doing this", it's "that's what the spec actually says to do". |
| [16:47:54] |
<TabAtkins> |
You *must* pick the first <source> with a matching MQ, and reevaluate that choice when the MQ truthiness changes. |
| [16:49:02] |
<TabAtkins> |
Once you've chosen a <source> (or the <img>), it's entirely browser-choice which source to pick, based on whatever criteria they find relevant. "Screen resolution" is definitely intended to be one, but "bandwidth situation" is also one we anticipate browsers using. |
| [16:53:36] |
<gregwhitworth> |
TabAtkins: Blink currently doesn't update when the truthiness changes |
| [16:53:52] |
<TabAtkins> |
And that's a bug. |
| [16:53:55] |
<gregwhitworth> |
TabAtkins: Specifically in regard to srcset |
| [16:54:02] |
<TabAtkins> |
Wait wait wait. |
| [16:54:27] |
<TabAtkins> |
Be clearer, please? MQ truthiness and srcset are quite unrelated - those are the two distinct directions I just talked about. |
| [16:55:32] |
<gregwhitworth> |
TabAtkins: I figured we were talking about two different things |
| [16:56:07] |
<gregwhitworth> |
TabAtkins: I am merely referring to if I have the following: srcset=" 1800w, 1200w" |
| [16:56:19] |
<TabAtkins> |
Okay, yeah, that has nothing to do with MQs |
| [16:57:18] |
<TabAtkins> |
You might be one of those unfortunates who has mixed up "old HTML srcset" with "new <picture> srcset", and have gotten confused about what the XXXw syntax means. |
| [16:58:09] |
<TabAtkins> |
XXXw is just an alternate way of writing NNNx, when the precise x value varies because the image's size is variable. |
| [16:58:36] |
<TabAtkins> |
You just give up, tell the browser how big the source is (the w number) and how big the image will be (the sizes attribute) and let it figure things out. |
| [16:59:08] |
<gregwhitworth> |
hmmmm, it definately still feels dimension based not pixel density based |
| [16:59:24] |
<gregwhitworth> |
And yes I'm looking at the W3C srcset spec |
| [16:59:29] |
<TabAtkins> |
I suggest rereading the spec for it, then, because it's nothing to do with the size of the viewport. ^_^ |
| [16:59:35] |
<TabAtkins> |
Why. Why are you looking there. |
| [16:59:48] |
<gregwhitworth> |
You're being sarcastic right |
| [16:59:56] |
<TabAtkins> |
The W3C spec hasn't updated to contain the <picture> information, I think? |
| [17:00:17] |
<TabAtkins> |
Just read picture.responsiveimages.org |
| [17:01:02] |
<TabAtkins> |
Until we're sure that the W3C copy contains the correct text from the WHATWG copy, the original source is fine. |
| [17:02:33] |
<TabAtkins> |
bbiab - have to do an interview |
| [17:02:33] |
<gregwhitworth> |
ok |
| [17:02:53] |
<gregwhitworth> |
ok |
| [17:06:26] |
<Wilto> |
Man, that URL is KILLING me. |
| [17:07:21] |
<Wilto> |
gregwhitworth: That doc is left over from the now-ancient WHATWG `srcset` proposal and REFUSES TO DIE. |
| [17:08:02] |
<Wilto> |
I knew we should have made the attribute `srcset-v2` in the `picture` spec. |
| [17:12:06] |
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<JonathanNeal> |
I could just imagine if attribute names had versions and or vendor prefixes. |
| [18:16:42] |
<TimWright> |
HA |
| [18:37:41] |
<gregwhitworth> |
Wilto: Ok, so we should be using srcset from the picture spec then as the definitive guide |
| [18:39:19] |
<gregwhitworth> |
Wilto: It says it was updated June of this year |
| [18:45:08] |
<Wilto> |
Yeah, not sure what the deal is there, gregwhitworth. |
| [18:45:26] |
<Wilto> |
Definitely defunct. |
| [18:48:00] |
<gregwhitworth> |
ugh |
| [18:48:07] |
<Wilto> |
*Agreed*. |
| [18:48:10] |
<gregwhitworth> |
We really need to figure this out |
| [18:48:21] |
<Wilto> |
But it shouldn’t be around much longer with things merged into the WHATWG spec. |
| [18:48:40] |
<Wilto> |
This is a darobin/hober question. |
| [18:48:42] |
<gregwhitworth> |
:( |
| [18:49:06] |
<gregwhitworth> |
I hate them being in two places |
| [18:49:13] |
<Wilto> |
You’re tellin’ me. |
| [18:49:16] |
<gregwhitworth> |
I know I'm not the first |
| [18:49:26] |
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<gregwhitworth> |
Thanks for the info though |
| [18:49:46] |
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<TabAtkins> |
gregwhitworth: We did figure this out, but MS won't let you use the solution. ^_^ |
| [19:27:36] |
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<zcorpan> |
gregwhitworth: w3c HTML 5.1 has new srcset and picture |
| [19:33:26] |
<zcorpan> |
The w3c srcset extension spec is broken until hober gets his act together |
| [19:52:25] |
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<gregwhitworth> |
I really wasn't wanting to get into a turf war here. There being two locations for "official" specs is problematic |
| [20:16:31] |
<gregwhitworth> |
TabAtkins: I really need to meet you as it is quite hard to discern your attitude in text. :) |
| [20:26:26] |
<johns> |
" Chrome Canary is currently not available on the linux platform. " srs |
| [20:50:52] |
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<johns> |
does <media-condition> in the picture text refer to the CSS4 spec? |
| [22:59:40] |
<johns> |
It doesn't seem to exist in the CSS3 MQ text |
| [22:59:45] |
<johns> |
but the spec links to that |
| [23:09:55] |
<MikeSmith> |
johns: yes |
| [23:10:11] |
<MikeSmith> |
johns: the level3 spec is obsolete |
| [23:11:52] |
<TabAtkins> |
johns: Where does <picture> link to MQ3? |
| [23:13:31] |
<johns> |
TabAtkins: The "<media-condition>" leads to which links |
| [23:16:42] |
<TabAtkins> |
Oh, whoops, we do indeed biblio over to MQ3. Darn. |
| [23:20:11] |
<MikeSmith> |
TabAtkins: |
| [23:23:13] |
<MikeSmith> |
I just now raised a bug |
| [23:23:22] |
<MikeSmith> |
see also |
| [23:23:55] |
<MikeSmith> |
|
| [23:25:03] |
<MikeSmith> |
we'll need for Hixie to make a fix but in the mean time also need zcorpan to add some text to work around it for now until Hixie has time to make the general update |
| [23:39:08] |
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